Trouble cutting 3/8” with Crossfire Pro and Primeweld Cut60 (Not solved yet)

[Simsworx]

@CrazyCasey As far as the hard limits go, did I correctly read that you shut down Firecontrol with the torch X:0 Y:33? And when you reloaded, you could “crash”? I suspect Firecontrol resets the machine home each time it’s loaded (look at the Machine tab next time.) As such, the soft limits will be out of position until a home has occurred.

Our new procedure is to home the machine each time Firecontrol is loaded. Even deliberate attempts to crash have been stopped by the limits (hard / soft).

Hope this helps.

[TinWhisperer]

Here is a really good video I found on EMI and how to reduce it.

It does go over all of the pervious talked about methods but with great visuals and tests to prove the reduction results.

Electromagnetic Interference & How to Reduce it - YouTube

[CrazyCasey]

I got an email back from Langmuir this morning.

They mentioned nothing of the damaged Z-axis components, but they would like me to go cut several straight lines on video (screen recording) until I can replicate the THC driving the torch into the work. They said it would be too complicated for them to diagnose WHY it happened if I got it to do it again on a more complex cut.

I responded and told them that the best they could probably hope for was to have me replicate the “live voltage” freezing on video, and reiterated that I needed them to either warranty or sell me some new z-axis parts. I also told them I had already taken some steps to reduce EMI, so I may have already solved the problem, but my machine is still damaged.

So, I guess I’m off to try and crash my machine again…on purpose this time.

I sure feel bad for my poor Tecmo machine torch…

Joyous Day!

[Bigdaddy2166]

Sorry, I have had my CrossFire pro for years now and have never crashed it. Limit switchs are a waste of time and headache. Before you push the cut button look and think of whats going on. If your file is even getting close to the limitations of the table do a dry run first. Just my two cents. I’ll be quiet now.

[Found]

Can’t agree more with that statement @Bigdaddy2166

[CrazyCasey]

You know, @Bigdaddy2166, I was just getting ready to message you to ask some questions about your EMI routine.

And while that comment makes you sound pretty cool on an internet forum, in this instance, you don’t really know what the heck you’re talking about. Also, it doesn’t do a damn thing to help, and certain feels a bit like a personal attack. Kind of borderline of a bullying thing to say in fact.

Here’s three reasons why you’re comment sucks:

1. The program that gave me a machine travel limits error had multiple tool paths, and like a rookie, I ran the dry run on the one that had slightly less area than the one that caused the error, because they both had the same origin point. You haven’t made ANY mistakes? Congratulations!

2. There is a bug in the limit switch version of FireControl that will ONLY allow you to move into the Y-axis hard limit if you have to restart the program for ANY reason when the torch is in the bottom left corner.

3. The only time my machine has crashed in a program is because FireControl froze and every single other safety override failed. So, not my fault!

[Bigdaddy2166]

Sorry, you took it like that. It was not mean that way. You have a problem with EMI and that primeweld unit is probably the culprit. At one time they were taken off the approved list just because of their EMI problem. Not sure how it got back on the list. Some work perfect and some are like yours.
They are notorious for this same problem.
Have you grounded the table?
Have you uncoiled the work cable from the side of the control box?
Have you put a emi choke on your usb?
Before I put a $200/piece of aluminum on the table. I would make sure I could cut out a bottle opener or something like that.

[CrazyCasey]

@Bigdaddy2166

Well, I’m sorry if I overreacted, John. I’m new to CNC, but not machining, and crashing machines is usually seen as a direct reflection on your worth as a human being in machinist circles (even though everyone has done it).

And while I’m admittedly a total rookie, I’m trying like Hell to follow best practices, and I think I’ve been pretty diligent about it, at least so far as I’ve been able to discern what best practices are.

I have not done the things you mentioned yet, as I took a break from this thing yesterday, and now Langmuir wants me to replicate the problem for them on video, so I might have to wait until I satisfy them, to start taking steps to reduce EMI, but I absolutely intend to do all of those things, and I want to try your sheathing on the work clamp cable, too.

And I think you’re right about Primeweld. Though I don’t think they’re going to refund me, so I need to try and make this thing work long enough to pay for a Hypertherm.

[Bigdaddy2166]

Put it on Craig’s list. If cost is an issue buy an Everlast 52i. If money is no object Hypertherm.

Do those things I said and you won’t need to email Langmuir.
Disable the stupid limit switches. All they do is put more drama in this situation. They are not needed at all…
Report back when you done. I’m serious about Craig’s list. 99% of your problem is that power supply.

[CrazyCasey]

You’re probably right, @Bigdaddy2166.

I have to deal with Langmuir, though; I don’t know if you saw, but when FireControl froze during a downward Z correction it ran the torch into my work so hard that it bent the rails and maybe the bearing axles on the Z-axis. I offered to buy the parts, but said that I really didn’t feel like this was my fault, and asked if they would warranty them. Their answer is to jump through all these hoops.

[Bigdaddy2166]

While your waiting for the parts. Start working on the list.
Move primeweld as far away as possible.
Put in ground rod.
Connect all the affected equip like we illustrated.
Emi choke on usb cable
Uncoil all cables, including work lead.
Disconnect limit switches. They have no purpose for you at this stage of the game. Sometime you can use them for indexing projects but not right now.
Report back
We all want you to get through this.
Lets do it. Asap
Put primeweld on Craigs list☺️

[CrazyCasey]

I figured I might as well post this video…for posterity.

This is basically exactly what the Langmuir tech who contacted me asked for. I mean, I think he technically wanted me to crash the machine again, but this illustrates the same failure that caused the crash.

Anyway, I was lucky enough that it did this again on the very first cut I tried. Almost like the EMI (or whatever is causing these issues) is getting worse.

FireControl Freezing During Cut

Anyway, sorry for the stupid LIKE button in the middle of the screen, but I wanted it to be easy to see the pertinent part of my laptop so I uploaded the video as a short.

To summarize what you’re seeing, 3/4 of the way through the first cut “live voltage, torch speed, and THC all freeze, and they stay frozen through the end of the cut, and after I end the program, and after I generate a new straight line program…and start and finish the second program. In fact, it’s still frozen now, and it’s been 45 minutes at least. I should probably go turn off my laptop.

Oh, and speaking of laptop, my charger doesn’t have a ground on it, so, that was a coincidence.

Hopefully this information is enough for Langmuir to make a determination as to whether or not I can get some new parts for my Z-axis. Once they sign off on this service request, I’ll start moving some wires around, and get this table grounded.

Anyway, I just thought I would share. Thank you everyone for your help, patience, moral support, etc.

-Casey

[CrazyCasey]

I don’t want to start an argument.

And I fully plan to proceed with the EMI mitigation strategies that have been presented.

BUT

I wanted to give a brief synopsis of my video teleconference with Langmuir’s tech support this evening, and a bit of a lightbulb moment that I had afterwards, at dinner.

So, basically, Langmuir connected into my laptop while I ran a bunch of cuts this evening, and of course, this time we couldn’t replicate the freezing issues I had experience just an hour prior (see video in the post above).

My wifi signal was too weak in the garage, so I had to use my mobile hot spot. Plus I was on the phone, plus I had my laptop plugged in. And everything worked perfectly.

I asked a BUNCH of questions. The tech didn’t think my Primeweld plasma cutter was the issue. He didn’t think my coiled up work lead was the issue (though he did suggest I uncoil it, and even better shorten it).

I asked about EMI, and his suggestion was that I try to pay attention to what’s happening when I’m having the freezing issues. His words: “is your neighbor using a grinder, is your wife doing laundry”. This is what, in the literary world, we refer to as “foreshadowing”.

The tech also said that people have issues with FireControl freezing often, and for a TON of different reasons. And he said that a common issue is actually incompatibility with the computer graphics card, especially when issues only present during complex geometry (“G3 moves”). He couldn’t give me definitive information about which graphics cards are compatible and which are not; high end cards seem to have more issues than basic equipment, and he thought my graphics card was probably fine.

Anyway, at the end of the day, we didn’t really get anywhere. And I still need to do some EMI mitigation best practices, move my Primeweld as far away as possible, and ground my table.

BUT

When I came in for dinner I asked my wife if she was doing any laundry today…

We determined that she was running the dryer when I had FireControl freeze up, and she was done by the time I got on the phone with Langmuir. And she’s pretty sure she was running the dryer around the same time I had the big failure on Sunday.

I’m not going to say that’s it. But it’s certainly an outside of the box thing to look into.

[72Pony]

Sounds like you are in good hands.

[roygpa]

New guy here. My only experience with CNC is 3D printers and laser cutter but just trying to help out where I can. Casey, there a post on the Facebook Langmuir Crossfire Support pages where a guy named Austin was having similar problem to yours and he checked out the hand torch plug end and found an O ring partially blocking the air line. Just thought I’d put that on here.

Roy
Planning on getting a Crossfire XL and a Primeweld Cut 60, eventually

[MrHaNkBoT]

For the pierce delay issue, try cleaning and lubing the moving part of the torch head (that the nozzle moves on) with some silicone grease. Many of my inconsistencies in piercing went away when I started to pay attention to that.

For the rest, good luck. I know it’s no help, but I have a version 2 Cut60 and don’t have any EMI issues and have taken no special effort to prevent them. In fact I’m actively doing some things that they are advising against, like coiled cables and things too close to each other. No special grounding setups either. Any freezes or other issues have all been software related on past versions of Firecontrol(for me).

I’m pulling for you, you can get this fixed, it’s just going to frustrate the crap out of you for a while longer. Don’t do what I did with my Industrial Hobbies CNC mill and let it sit unused for years before fixing it because you grow to hate it, just keep plugging away.

[roygpa]

If and when I pull the trigger for a Primeweld Cut 60, how can I be sure that I am getting the version 2?

[72Pony]

If you buy new you would be getting the one on the approved list. If you buy used the CPC port is in the upper right corner on the newer ones.

New or old I recommend hooking up to the RAW voltage inside the machine for the VIM module if you do Torch height control.

[MrHaNkBoT]

You will get version 3 I believe if you order now, mine is a couple years old. Version 3 should be even better prepped for CNC from an EMI/voltage divider standpoint, though unfortunately as OP has found, it’s no guarantee of success.

I was mostly saying that some people (like me) are lucky and can get away with an awful lot from these things, and some aren’t. In my case the early stuff I thought was EMI was just Firecontrol being unstable, and it’s now not a problem with the last few versions of FC. I definitely feel bad for any guy dealing with stuff like this, because I’ve been there with my CNC mill not running right, and it being a terrible process to diagnose.

knocks on wood

[CrazyCasey]

@roygpa, thank you. I have been talking with Austin since his first posts because I noticed so much similarity in his issues. There are just so many variables when you’re starting out, and they can compound to make diagnosis hard. I wouldn’t be surprised if I have some sort of internal blockage in the torch, too. And quite possibly some stiction as @MrHaNkBoT touched on, but the one that’s making the machine unusable is FireControl freezing, most likely because of EMI.

For what it’s worth, the machine I ordered on Black Friday 11/25/2022 was manufactured on 8/27/2021. And I am curious to see if my warranty replacement machine is an earlier serial number, or a later one. I will, of course, report back with that information once I obtain it.

Thank you for the kind words.

Knocks on wood is right, Henry.