I think Apple is a prime example of that. I don’t have any Apple products but I assume they are quality phones based on the billions of lemmings that keep buying the next mouse trap every year or two.
Their customers just plan on laying out the 1200 dollars every two years and don’t even give a thought about it. Most of those phones were made in China. Apple has begun shifting a big share of business to India now.
I’d say our own need for excess is what makes it a problem, but it all started as innocently as “keeping up with the Jones’ ” in the post WWII era, and then of course, the introduction of US consumers to Japanese manufacturing, and all of the cheap cars and cool gadgets that came along with that. The need for excess really started spiraling out of control in the 80’s, I think, and you could probably trace the roots of planned obsolescence back about that far as well, which really locked us into the cycle.
I try really hard not to live that way; it’s one of the places where my wife and I butt heads a little. I mean, I still drive a 1998 Ford Econoline, and I buy my clothes a lot of times at Thrift Stores. But at the same time I’m very grateful to have a vertical mill, a CNC plasma, and now a fixture table in my meager shop. Not to mention all of the Chinese tooling I use on this equipment. I have some pretty insane manufacturing capability for somebody who strung it all together on less than $100,000.
There’s no way we’re ever going to “decouple” from China unless we go to war; and even still it’s debatable how “decoupled” we would actually become. My own wish is that enough people would become conscious of what’s really important, and act accordingly. And that we (globally) could embrace making and buying goods that last, once again…perhaps as a part of this new “Green Agenda”, even. I mean to inject NO politics whatsoever into this discussion, BUT, what could actually be “greener” than trying to cut down on our rampant consumption? But that’s bad for business, so…
FWIW, I’m not convinced Langmuir’s tables are actually any better. 
But I guess this is about as good as I’m gonna get:
Regret isn’t a sentiment I’m particularly fond of, but I really should have saved my almost $2,000 and bought a Fireball Table later this year…
How much is a fireball in that size? What hole size? 5/8”?
One other thing did you ever flip the level to see if you got the same readings?
I would be curious as to how that level checks against a real straight edge. After all you are basing all this on something you have no way of knowing if it’s straight.
Look up and see how much a Starrett straight edge is.
You have a $100K in equipment?
I looked at Siegmund and they claim
± .020” on there 10’ table over the full length. Didn’t see a different spec for the smaller tables
The Fireball table this size is $2,000, or the one I wish I would have purchased that’s equivalent to 3 of these small tables is $5,000. They both use a 3/4” hole system, and are advertised to +/- 0.0025” per 2’ of table surface.
Siegmunds +/- 0.020” over 10’ isn’t quite as good, but it’s 3x better than what these small tables advertise, and it’s better than they actually measure in practice.
I am measuring these tables with a 50” Powertec brand straight edge that is advertised to be within 0.003”, which I purchased specifically for the purpose of verifying the measurements obtained with my really nice Empire level. The straightedge agrees with the non-magnetic side of my Empire level within about a thou.
One other thing I will say, is that both tables are almost dead flat across their opposite corners; within a thou or two, so even if my measuring devices are flawed somewhat, it’s all relative. That, and one table measures low in the center, and the other measures high in the center. Measuring the same results with the level. Both agree with my mill table as being flat within a thou or two as well. So any error is absolutely minimal.
I probably have at least $100,000 in tools, I’m sure. I’ve been buying tools since I was 16 and I’m 43 now; it really adds up. Vises, anvils, workbenches, tool boxes, mechanics tools, welders, a mill and lathe with tooling, engish wheel, planishing hammer, bead roller, sheetmetal brake, hydraulic press, tubing bender and tooling, welders, CNC plasma table, 3D printers, drill press, belt sanders, band saw, grinders, buffers, etc, etc.
Notice how I didn’t add “fixture table” to that list. Nor the $500 in 5/8” fixturing I bought for this stupid banana shaped thing. 
They might be on sale
The 3/4" tooling locks you into buying from him right? Everyone else is 5/8 / 16mm or 1.1 / 28mm
I do like the tooling Jason has but hate the thought of having to buy all new.
Sounds like you have the straight edge covered good enough for what your checking.
You should send Jason a email and asking him if you were to buy a table from him, what would happen if it was not within spec on flatness?
And I wonder being Cast could it warp over time?
It’s an interesting thought and something I would certainly do ahead of actually purchasing one. Fireball does seem to very proactively QC their stuff though, in general, where my gripe with both Langmuir and Primeweld is and has been from the beginning that they really do NOT do any kind of secondary QC to their factory.
Fireball’s tables are 1” thick, so I do imagine the potential for warping would be minimal. The one they call “the workbench” is the one I am referring to for $5,000, and it’s a 60x30 that weighs over 1,000 lbs. That’s 80 lbs/sqft, where the Primeweld/Langmuir tables weigh 24 lbs/sqft.
When you think about it, 3/8” is really thin for a casting that is then going to be machined, and expected to retain its flatness under any kind of loading scenario. The Primeweld/Langmuir tables are cast and machined to a weight specification based on a ground shipping limit of 150 lbs WITH packaging. It’s a flawed approach to making a precision piece.
In my opinion, err, rather the conclusion that I have come to…the reality is that these cheap tables are just too thin to hold precision flatness under fixturing use, or even “handling” by an unconcerned shipper.
In conclusion, I do believe that Langmuir probably does a better job of packaging their tables than does Primeweld, and that very well may translate to a better product received by the end user, BUT based on how much my tables move when they’re not perfectly level, I anticipate that clamping uneven material to these thin tables will distort their surfaces beyond what I am already measuring in short order.
I think that most customers who order these cheap tables are really just looking for a “fancy work bench”, and for those types of customers, this product certainly fits a niche (and is a huge upgrade over something like the Klutch/HarborFreight table). It is, however, marketed as a precision piece, and I don’t believe it is actually capable of being that at only 145 lbs.
Thanks for the followup… I guess I’ll stick with my weathered OSB “fixture” table. I noticed yesterday I left my table extension(smaller sized scrap) out and it got snowed on… it’s now frozen to the ground… but it looks like I gained a 1/4” of thickness out of the deal. And with single digits on the way I expect it will gain a little rigidity… 
Maybe if you leave the Primeweld table out it will swell and give you some more rigidity?
How much is shipping on the 1” fireball table you are wanting?
Ok a this point if I were you I would play with putting a truss across the bottom and push the bottom up on the table that is low in the center and call it good.
I checked my table to day with a 4’ level (not sure how close it is) and mine is out in spots up to .018. I got to thinking is anything I am building going to be much different it it was perfectly flat, probably not.
The wink link in my table is the fabricator!
The big problem for my table is accuracy of the holes that are on 4" centers. These were holes I laid out and drilled with a mag drill and they did not come out very close. So while looking around on the Fireball website I see he makes a fixture that allows you to install holes on 2 inch centers much more precisely. Its only 24" long so I will need to make my own.
So instead of spending 11K on a new table I am going to make a big improvement on mine for way less.
This will be a very long process as I will be plugging 300 holes and drill 600 new ones.
I need to do some research to make sure my idea will work but I think it will.
Wish me luck I’m sure I will need it.
Well, fellas, it was an interesting week. I’m sorry that this is a long post, but I want to be very detailed, and it’s worth the read.
Prior to posting that “Short” of the new table on YouTube, I had told Mike (my point of contact at Primeweld) that I was still unhappy. He apologized, and based on our previous conversations I do believe he had done all that he was authorized as an employee to do, for me as a customer.
Shortly after posting that last YouTube “Short” to both YouTube and Instagram and tagging Primeweld in those posts, Primeweld’s account commented that I had been fully refunded, and that they were making a slight revision to their design to insure more flatness, and that they would be sending me a new version table as soon as they had one available.
I had already filmed a full 15 minute detailed review video and was in process of uploading it to YouTube when I saw the comment, so I switched the privacy on that video so that it wouldn’t actually go LIVE, and I emailed the viewing link to Mike, explaining this review wasn’t going live, but that I wanted him to watch it, and share it with everybody else at Primeweld who would benefit from watching it. It was titled “3 Reasons Not to Buy [their table]”, and it was VERY critical.
The video was watched a total of 5 times.
The next morning I got a very heartfelt email from Dustin, the owner of Primeweld, who apologized for my experience, and said he agreed with all of the points in my review video. He made a couple counterpoints, but said that they were taking my feedback seriously and using it to help them improve their next batch of tables and their packaging/shipping, etc. He said that future batches would be flat, and wouldn’t be able to get beat up in shipping as badly. He made a point to say that they are treating me the same as they have treated every other customer in the 10 years they’ve been in business, and that they would do anything to ensure I’m happy.
So, anyway, I’m really impressed. My money was refunded, and my feedback was heard, and is being implemented. I’ve always heard that Primeweld’s customer service was the best in the business, and I had experienced it to a certain degree previously, which is why I bought THEIR table in the first place, but they really went above and beyond, in my opinion.
It sounds like Primeweld’s revised tables are going to be everything that these one’s weren’t, with the nitirding and better legs.
Dustin also said that they want me to test out a new table design that they are working on, which is more similar to the Fireball table (big and heavy), and give them my feedback on it, which is a really exciting opportunity. I think that it is really neat that they are as interested in working with their critics, as they are in working with a regular everyday “influencer”. That’s kind of an “old school” mentality, and it’s largely absent in today’s business landscape.
Anyway, did I already say that I’m really impressed?
I would say lucky that you get to work with them And everyone benefits from yours and primewelds commitment to quality.
You did good!
Nice work! Way to stick with it!
I am impressed with both you and Primeweld. Primeweld for making it right, and you for allowing them to do so!
Hello everyone,
I know this is a relatively old topic. But I am considering purchasing a table or two from primeweld and looking for a possible update.
@CrazyCasey Did they ever follow up and/or send a revised table?
Thank you all for the shared information above!
It’s an inexpensive table.
The way I see it is, if you’re doing precision work for aerospace or similar, you wouldn’t be using such a table. There are far more expensive tables that are available which are truly “flat” for such work.
For everyone else, I bet the table is plenty better than what most are used to using.
I think Casey bought Primeweld tables. They are very similar. I think he did a couple review videos of them on YouTube.
He had issues with the tables he was sent not being within spec. He indicated PW was going to make some changes. I don’t know what if any changes were actually made. Hopefully he chimes in.
Also wanted to add, since it seems to be overlooked by @Cmash or anyone else looking to purchase a table is that PrimeWeld no longer advertises a specific flatness. They did away with this on their site months back.
Just to reiterate the cost of these tables and what your expectations should be.
Thanks for pointing that out. I did see that they removed the spec. I am mostly interested if Primeweld followed up like they said they would. And if the current table are any different than what he originally received. Not expecting serious tolerance from a sub $1000 table. Should be plenty good for my projects though.
