Clearing up confusion of HF vs Non-HF Plasma cutters

Edit: Note that this thread was started to clear up the confusion of how to identify High Frequency start plasma cutters so this initial message was split out of a previous conversation.

I was just giving an example of how a post could be highlighted. I was not picking winners and losers (though I sort of was :wink:)

Tom might be right on his comment. Here is AI response to: "Are there any HF plasma cutters that use the blow back feature with the electrode?

image

Then I posed the question: “Do all HF plasma cutters have porcelain torch tips?”

Answer:

So it does appear that the blow back design of the OEM torch is an indicator of a non-HF plasma cutter.

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I cant wait till Kwikfab sees this!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You are going to hear it now

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Seriously, I tried to research this topic and there is one guy that states positively that “All HF plasma cutters have a pilot arc. That is how you know they are HF start.”

So much disinformation that I just let AI let my fingers do the walking.

I think it would be a mistake to use AI and consider it infallible. Even when it might have the potential to be accurate, I would never 100% trust AI

KwikFab is right behind me right now… isn’t he?:face_with_open_eyes_and_hand_over_mouth:

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And you could say the same about forums, and the internet also. nothing is 100% not in todays world.
In the last few months I have noticed peoples demeanor change on here. People seem to have much less patience.

I sometimes read the posts and there is so much different information being give to the person they don’t know what to do.

We all want to help (i think) but sometimes the help may not be that beneficial. I myself sometimes give info and later look at it and say to myself “I did not think that through very well”

I some times see posts where I miss spelled words and left out words months later and I go back and correct them as I think it adds to the confusion.

I am also guilty of being in a hurry and giving wrong advice.

As big daddy says let the hate mail begin!

One more thing, I have added to the problem I hate by adding more garbage to this thread by posting something not even related to it. I hate it, but I still do it

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This is a true statement. And all blowback plasma cutters have a pilot arc. A pilot arc is necessary for a ‘non-touch’ torch to fire.

It is also why having a ‘pilot arc’ does NOT distinguish between HF or blowback starts.

So this statement is NOT true.

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I know! That was the point I was trying to make: It is hard to find the truth and by not know the source (which I don’t know these guys) the information can get really confusing.

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You guys are killing this.

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Yea this needs to be talked about on its own thread. Now if you really want to know more about this blowback, high frequency, pilot arc thing I will give you most or all the info to date on this matter. I think @ChelanJim should start a thread on looking for the truth on this.

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We are ready for the low-down on this topic. Feel free to edit the title and category.

And I appreciate your suggestion to split this out of the previous conversation.

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OK, then you will have to bear with me as typing is not my strong thing.

Lets start off with talking about plasma cutters that are HF from the basic to the more advanced.

Note: Most HF plasma cutter (but not all) have a built in gap between the electrode and the cutting tip. This is like a spark plug gap.

Note: All electrodes (negative) are isolated from the outer threads (positive) on all plasma cutters HF as well as blow back units.

Now first all HF plasma cutters do NOT have a pilot arc. Some have to have the cutting tip touched on the metal (positive) to complete the circuit to start the arc for cutting. This is because the cutting tip is isolated from the electrode by a swirl ring and a retaining cup that has no metal in it like ceramic or other non conductive material. Also some must be kept in contact with the metal or the arc will go out. There are some that can be lifted off the metal and still cut as long as its close to the metal to maintain the arc.

Then we have the pilot arc HF plasma cutters. These will have a cutting tip that is (positive) by some means. These have a positive wire from the plasma cutter to the outer threads of the torch. The cutting tip is screwed into the torch making contact or the cutting tip is on a swirl ring and the retaining cup has a metal liner when screwed on connecting the cutting tip and threads. When the trigger is pulled there is a spark between the electrode and cutting tip starting the pilot arc. The pilot arc on a lot of the cheaper plasma cutters will stay on continuously as long as the trigger is pulled as well as the hole time it is cutting. This is one reason why HF consumables do not last very long.

Now there are plasma cutters that use a non HF or blow back torch that are HF start. The 2 most common torch’s used are the Thermal Dynamics SL60 and the Trafimet S45. They are timed to blow back just before the HF is activated giving the pilot arc.

Note: Most large commercial CNC tables actually are HF plasma cutting units because they are more reliable then blow back torch’s.

Now, I see that its most likely it will not be long till you will have HF plasma cutters that it will be harder to tell them from blow back units other then the consumables they use. With the advancement with electronics a lot of Tig welders do not use HF to start the arc. They are using electronic to start the arc and I believe it will be used on plasma cutters soon.

We will get into plasma cutters that are not HF.

Other then some HF plasma cutters that use the blow back torch’s listed above use a torch that has a moving electrode. This is by a air activated plunger that pulls the electrode (negative) back away from the cutting tip (positive) creating a small spark starting the pilot arc. Some years back on blow back plasma cutters, just like HF units the pilot arc stayed on the hole time it was cutting and there was no post air flow this caused consumable life to be very short.

Today with the advancement in electronics most of the trouble with the older blow back plasma cutters are gone. The ones still being used today The PT/IPT, S45, X45, etc. if kept clean and lubed they will still work just fine. Also years back you could rebuild most blow back torch’s unlike today in most cases you have to replace the complete torch head. Torch’s like Thermal Dynamics SL torch’s and Hypertherm’s new torch’s have no moving parts to go bad.

HF plasma cutters work fine in most cases. But for better consumable life as well as less electronic interference with other things like computers, CNC controllers, etc. or used around sensitive electronic’s around hospitals or people with pacemakers the blow back plasma cutters work better.

This is not everything but should cover most answers being asked about the difference between the HF and blow back plasma cutters.

Questions?

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But you failed to distinguish between the true part and the false. The fallacy is called ‘Non sequitur’ where the conclusion does not follow the premise.
Example: All Cats are animals and have fur. Therefore animals with fur are cats.

If you argue that the statement is false, you fall prey to anyone who PROVES the first part.

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I knew I felt a disturbance somewhere :rofl:

No but seriously this is great work.

I understand that these tables often make it outside the country, so people come on here asking about plasma cutters we’ve never heard of.

But there are so many non-HF plasma cutters offered stateside that I do wonder how people still go out of their way to find an HF variant to use on their table.

One guy a few weeks ago (in the US) bought an HF plasma cutter I had never heard about and posted on FB. Only after me and 10 others told him it won’t work did he finally realize it won’t work…no shit, we told you so.

I hope the information in this thread finds possible new members and saves them the time and frustration of accidentally buying an HF machine.

Then again, some people just want to be told “here’s a list, pick one”…

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Tom, I am not arguing with you. You make a good point that sometimes my statements are difficult to parse the meaning of my message.

But if you re-read them, you will see that I am not disagreeing with you.

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